Re: WDW neglected?

**Mo Noyz** · 07-12-2012, 06:04 AM

Yeah, they took control of The Living Seas pavilion...

I'm not so sure we want to see them do any more of that.

**JNota0005DakMC** · 07-12-2012, 09:39 AM

yeh... i know what you mean... but at least they did something though... think of this... which is worse in your opinion... The Seas with Nemo or the Siemens refurb of Spaceship Earth... i know what i would choose...

**Mo Noyz** · 07-12-2012, 11:06 AM

I'd say the first 13-14 minutes of Spaceship Earth are better than they've ever been, not counting the dumbed-down script.

And that first 13-14 minutes trumps anything in The Seas. Now, if they'd restock the aquarium to the level it was back in the 80's, well, then they'd have something. The biggest problem with The Seas, IMO, is the near state of disrepair they've let the tank fall into.

**JNota0005DakMC** · 07-12-2012, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

I'd say the first 13-14 minutes of Spaceship Earth are better than they've ever been, not counting the dumbed-down script.

And that first 13-14 minutes trumps anything in The Seas. Now, if they'd restock the aquarium to the level it was back in the 80's, well, then they'd have something. The biggest problem with The Seas, IMO, is the near state of disrepair they've let the tank fall into.

oh you are absolutely right about the Seas... if they actually replenished and at least tried to make the aquarium what it was they'd be on to something... and your right about SSE... the beginning is phenomenal... its the descent that completely ruins that attraction for me... my g/f doesn't know any better so she likes it... but for those of us who remember the descent the way it was knows this attraction was ruined there...

**Mo Noyz** · 07-12-2012, 12:24 PM

It is a real shame. It's almost as if they thought, "how can we make the ascent as awesome as the descent is awful?"

A fine balancing act. Starting the post show before the ride is even over.

**LTTCMJAKE** · 07-12-2012, 02:30 PM

I was never privileged enough to see the old versions of Space Ship Earth so please explain how the decent was way better before the remodel?

And from rumors I've heard the first scene with the mammoths that scene was once animatronics not a projection in my opinion animatronic sound way cooler but i may be wrong

**JNota0005DakMC** · 07-12-2012, 03:14 PM

Well... Let's see... The entire descent showed how communication of the current day worked from showing AA's talking to famil members across the world and. Lasses being taught by a teacher halfway around the globe... The truth of the matter is it had great scenes and made the trip down enjoyable and showed Disney's strength... Unfortunately Siemens didn't see it this way...

**HauntedGabe** · 07-12-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by JNota0005DakMC

ok but lets get something straight... FLE is not a response to HP... fair point that Avatarland might very well be (taking the highest grossing film of all time... smart but thats another conversation... not that this one hasn't morphed 10 times by now) and Wharf (though shelved) is not a "response" to CityWalk... more it as acceptance... Disney doesn't have that 20's-3-'s club scene anymore... they don't seem to want it... if they did they would have kept something in the form of Pleasure Island around... Disney being smart has realized that the % of families on vacation far outweigh the young couples/and or singles coming to central Orlando (though i am in this group)... they are trying to maximize the people staying on property's time, and keep their money rolling in... heres the deal... the only place i feel is neglected in WDW is Epcot... this is simply because Disney seems to want to keep the sponsorship of pavilions going... i wonder if they just took control of some of these pavilions themselves if they could get them refurbished and updated... yeh I'm talking to you JiI, WoL and UoE...

See, I look at this as a difference of opinion verses the need to get something straight. I am of the opinion that Florida Disney and Universal have been in a game of chess for the last 30 years dating back to Eisner. The Great Race to who could open first MGM or Universal. Universal started and purchased the needed land, funding problems, financial backers falling through and one of those key players being Eisner. Eisner jumping ship and having inside knowledge of what was planned for Universal built a mini park and opened MGM just ahead of Universal. Unfortunately MGM to this day is saddled with the rushed plans resulting in an unorthodox and narrow street pattern. It was the forced perspective of there being being more to the park than there actually was. The park opened only with 5 attractions, a few shops and a handful of restaurants. At best a half day park and a lot of wasted guest time over the next several years because guests were left with little to do between show times. And that is my opinion of when the game of chess started.

Others might find it coincidental that FLE was announced as HP got on the way, or that Avatar was announced after HP Expansion, or that Disney abandoned their Wharf after seeing what Universal had in store for their entertainment district. The problem is Disney has been slow out of the gate to answer the Universal Parks upgrades with the misfire of concept for FLE and the Wharf and the nothingness that has followed with the announcement of Avatar. Me, my opinion is WDW would have stayed exactly as it was if Universal didn't step up to the plate and put pressure on Disney executives to do something other than keeping the parks in the neglected, idle mode that Universal Parks was breaking out of. I buy into a story that it was Disney by Design that they leveled buildings in Pleasure Island and abandoned a couple others, left it in abandoned state because that was the master plan. This is what Disney wanted.
I believe the Wharf was yet another misfire in imagineering. Meanwhile at least they are bringing bowling to the DTD property, imagineering at its best.

**Mo Noyz** · 07-12-2012, 04:25 PM

I won't disagree that Universal lit a bit of a fire under Disney.

The focal point of my argument (and perhaps JNota's), is that they still haven't even gotten close.

When the Superbowl winning quarterback says, "I'm going to Universal!", well then maybe you've got something.

**ohiodisneydad** · 07-12-2012, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mo Noyz

I won't disagree that Universal lit a bit of a fire under Disney.

The focal point of my argument (and perhaps JNota's), is that they still haven't even gotten close.

When the Superbowl winning quarterback says, "I'm going to Universal!", well then maybe you've got something.

Now we agree on something. I too think Universal has motivated Disney and you are right, they aren't there. They may not ever be there BUT they are trying. I think their new value resort is a shot across the bow of the Value Resorts. Competition is good for everyone.

**supernova** · 07-12-2012, 08:45 PM

While Disney certainly doesn't need a 29% increase in attendance (the parks are way too crowded already without cramming more people in there anyway), I'm not sure they could ever introduce anything that WOULD bring in that huge an increase. It's certainly not going to be an extention of Fantasyland. As for Universal, it wasn't the Universal side of the park that got the increase, it was the Islands of Adventure side. Though why they try to treat these two as seperate parks, I don't know. Other than bumping up ticket pricing to a two-park offering.

Disney really has figured it out, though. It was cheaper for them to partner up with Mears and have them operate a free Magical Express service for Disney guests instead of charging for the trip. Why? Because now guests are stuck at Disney. So unless you're goint to hop a cab, it's easier for you (and your money) to stay put on Disney property. Which is why I always rent a car at the airport. I don't want to be trapped on property for the duration of my stay. It's just not going to happen.

**HauntedGabe** · 07-13-2012, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by supernova

While Disney certainly doesn't need a 29% increase in attendance (the parks are way too crowded already without cramming more people in there anyway), I'm not sure they could ever introduce anything that WOULD bring in that huge an increase. It's certainly not going to be an extension of Fantasyland. As for Universal, it wasn't the Universal side of the park that got the increase, it was the Islands of Adventure side. Though why they try to treat these two as separate parks, I don't know. Other than bumping up ticket pricing to a two-park offering.

I'm with you, I actually don't believe FLE other than initially will alter the MK's attendance much if at all.
MK & DL are so close in attendance numbers and have always pulled far away from the pack. I always put the Universal Parks on the same playing field as AK and DHS. Disney isn't likely loosing a day to Islands from the MK, it is either AK or DHS. Even Epcot's numbers are not anywhere near what MK and DL are. It did surprise me that WDW decided the park to expand was the MK when the other three were really the parks that needed attention, especially a half a billion. Wooba.

Ya, we were using "islands" all throughout the various posts. Phase two of HP will actually dip into the Universal park, pretty cool marketing of the other park. But help me out, WDW is the proper name for the parks, hotels etc., I've only heard Universal to describe the total package of their resorts, parks, City etc. For future reference when referring to Universal as a total entity what is the proper name of the entire resort? I'm at the same loss for DL & Cali and their DTD and hotels, does it have a proper name other than Disneyland? I never hear anything besides "I'm going to Disneyland" but on the flip I don't hear "I'm going to the Magic Kingdom."

Disney really has figured it out, though. It was cheaper for them to partner up with Mears and have them operate a free Magical Express service for Disney guests instead of charging for the trip. Why? Because now guests are stuck at Disney. So unless you're goint to hop a cab, it's easier for you (and your money) to stay put on Disney property. Which is why I always rent a car at the airport. I don't want to be trapped on property for the duration of my stay. It's just not going to happen.

Ya, the ME was marketing genius. All of the transportation within the resort and from the airport is loaded against room price, so even though the guest is actually paying for it if they use it or not, not having a separate charge for the ME makes guest feel like they are getting something for free and jump on it. Brilliant.

**supernova** · 07-13-2012, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by HauntedGabe

I'm with you, I actually don't believe FLE other than initially will alter the MK's attendance much if at all. MK & DL are so close in attendance numbers and have always pulled far away from the pack. I always put the Universal Parks on the same playing field as AK and DHS. Disney isn't likely loosing a day to Islands from the MK, it is either AK or DHS. Even Epcot's numbers are not anywhere near what MK and DL are. It did surprise me that WDW decided the park to expand was the MK when the other three were really the parks that needed attention, especially a half a billion. Wooba.

My error in not designating between parks at WDW. I'm still confused by what they're doing at Universal. Now that Jaws is gone and HP encroaching on the Universal side, I take it that the new back of HP is going to come right up to the waterway? Jaws was primarily a water-based ride with the facades of the landscape along the edges, plus whatever else was tucked back there. I don't know if the expansion truly required removing Jaws, unless they plan on including a water ride or something.

Originally Posted by HauntedGabe

Ya, we were using "islands" all throughout the various posts. Phase two of HP will actually dip into the Universal park, pretty cool marketing of the other park. But help me out, WDW is the proper name for the parks, hotels etc., I've only heard Universal to describe the total package of their resorts, parks, City etc. For future reference when referring to Universal as a total entity what is the proper name of the entire resort? I'm at the same loss for DL & Cali and their DTD and hotels, does it have a proper name other than Disneyland? I never hear anything besides "I'm going to Disneyland" but on the flip I don't hear "I'm going to the Magic Kingdom." .

Again, with ME, I would think most people are going to hit all four parks anyway. The thing here is, they go to DHS and AK either once each or do both in one day. Then they spend the rest of their Magic Your Way ticket (another brilliant move tricking people into buying length-of-stay passes) at Epcot or more likely MK. So when they say that MK gets the most visitors, I don't know if that's unique visits, or is it one visit for the other parks and then four visits to MK per person per trip. I believe AK saw more traffic than DCA did if I remember correctly. Though there again, most of DL's traffic is local. Why fly six hours from the east coast to CA to see Mickey when the 2 hour flight to FL is more cost effective and is easier, plus there is a heck of a lot more to see there.

**Mo Noyz** · 07-13-2012, 05:55 AM

Universal Orlando

Walt Disney World Resort

Disneyland Resort

**JNota0005DakMC** · 07-13-2012, 08:42 AM

I had heard that they are making an area in the old Jaws section (Amity) with the HP train to the Potterland in Islands... There would be an attraction based on the bank in HP I think... I just don't know what the plan Universal has for the admission for only one park would work... Almost seems as though they are tapped out space wise with this and the resort they are building...

Mike... I agree with your thoughts above about FLE and Avatarland being Disney responses to HP... I think in my opinion that Disney had a plan for an expansion of Fantasyland well before as we had heard the mine coaster rumblings and such years earlier.. I speculate that the Universal announcement and ground breaking of HP land prompted Disney to rush the announcement of FLE... As we have seen there have been multiple changes and updates since the initial release (namely the addition of the aforementioned Mine train) I think deep down Disney wanted to do that but they were pressured into a response... We know that Universal and Disney have been battling over the Orlando market since the late 80's and early 90's... Disney has to recognize the threat (as they did in the 80's by opening MGM) And truth be told... Avatarland is a direct response to HP land... What better way (in Disney's eyes) to fight one of the highest grossing movie franchises than by opening a land based in the single highest grossing film worldwide...? I don't know how it's going to workout... But I find it interesting that Disney announced a merger and a deal with Cameron without any plans of where, how, and any idea as to what this will eventually be... I think I was an attempt to upstage Universal in that respect... But the job of the imagineers and such is not to upstage Universal... It's to continually push their own envelope... To outdo themselves... That's what they did in Carsland... And thats what we are hoping they do in the FLE... The feeling of neglect comes from that opening... That we should have received it... And I still firmly believe its in the right place... In DCA where it was desperately required...