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Ask The Disney Experts Discuss New Fast Pass in the Ask The Experts forums; Originally Posted by i-neighborhood It may be more secure in part you're right, but not full proof, nothing is. Not claiming it is. But I have to again agree to ...
  1. #16
    doconeill's Avatar
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Quote Originally Posted by i-neighborhood View Post
    It may be more secure in part you're right, but not full proof, nothing is.
    Not claiming it is.

    But I have to again agree to disagree with you regarding the MagicBands and personal information.
    Not sure what other information you might have. But I've worked with various RFID systems. These types of systems do not contain personal information. They are extremely simplistic and contain ID codes. All such systems require connecting to a database to retrieve the information they need based on the code. To some, that gives the impression that they have your personal information on them, but they don't. The personal information is in the database. The RFID device is the key. You need to have access to both.

    It's the same thing with the finger scanners. The scan is not encoded on the ticket. It's kept in a database. The turnstile reads the ticket, and reads the finger. It sends the two bits of information to the admissions computer. The admissions computer accesses the database, and asks, "Does Ticket X correspond to finger Y?" And send the results back to the turnstile.

    Same thing with PINs and ATM/Debit/Credit cards. The PIN is not encoded on the card, but is in the bank's database. Otherwise, I'd be able to get your PIN from your card, which would make having a PIN pretty useless.
    Doc

    Website work in progress: WDW Untangled: Fastpass+ - Rider Switch - ADR Calculator - Magic Your Way Ticket Price Calculator
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  2. #17
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    I wasn't implying you were asserting a claim of full proof.

    I understand you're experienced with RFID systems and the deployment of these applications.

    My confidence is not the same regarding the integrity and exploitation of personal, private or corporate data, especially where RFID is concerned. The primary deployment of RFID systems are deployed in the manner you describe, but that doesn't preclude exploitation and that is what I am referring in disagreeing regarding personal information, however, not all RFID deployments are exclusive to that method and some deployments contain a mixture or capability for the tag to contain a variety of information on the tag itself.

    While the Disney deployment will probably be with the best efforts to keep information secure, if Disney himself, Eisner or Iger or Disney's I.T. experts conveyed to me that my personal information was secure I would take exception. You and I understand more than the average person the back end of that kind of technology, so for me to say personal information is a concern I'm referring to the package as a whole, but then as I mentioned, where the personal data is stored will depend on what the specs are for the deployment in my opinion.

    You are correct that Disney's MagicBands may not contain personal data. For me ultimately time will reveal what the final deployment comprises and if any personal data is on the bracelet itself or on the back end or a mixture.

    Either way, any step forward always has its pros and cons especially where technology is involved.

    Quote Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
    Not claiming it is.



    Not sure what other information you might have. But I've worked with various RFID systems. These types of systems do not contain personal information. They are extremely simplistic and contain ID codes. All such systems require connecting to a database to retrieve the information they need based on the code. To some, that gives the impression that they have your personal information on them, but they don't. The personal information is in the database. The RFID device is the key. You need to have access to both.

    It's the same thing with the finger scanners. The scan is not encoded on the ticket. It's kept in a database. The turnstile reads the ticket, and reads the finger. It sends the two bits of information to the admissions computer. The admissions computer accesses the database, and asks, "Does Ticket X correspond to finger Y?" And send the results back to the turnstile.

    Same thing with PINs and ATM/Debit/Credit cards. The PIN is not encoded on the card, but is in the bank's database. Otherwise, I'd be able to get your PIN from your card, which would make having a PIN pretty useless.
    Last edited by i-neighborhood; 05-28-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  3. #18
    HauntedGabe's Avatar
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Quote Originally Posted by i-neighborhood View Post
    I wasn't implying you were asserting a claim of full proof.

    I understand you're experienced with RFID systems and confident in the deployment of these applications.

    My confidence is not the same regarding the integrity and exploitation of personal, private or corporate data, especially where RFID is concerned. The primary deployment of RFID systems are deployed in the manner you describe, but that doesn't preclude exploitation and that is what I am referring when I make the assertion of personal information, however, not all RFID deployments are exclusive to that method and some deployments contain a mixture or capability for the tag to contain a variety of information on the tag itself.

    While the Disney's deployment will probably be with the best efforts to keep information secure, if Disney himself, Eisner or Iger or Disney's I.T. experts conveyed to me that my personal information was secure I would still take exception. You and I understand more than the average person the back end of that kind of technology, so for me to say personal information is a concern I'm referring to the package as a whole, but then as I mentioned, where the personal data is stored will depend on what the specs are for the deployment.

    You are correct that Disney's MagicBands may not contain personal data. For me ultimately time will reveal what the final deployment comprises and if any personal data is on the bracelet itself or on the back end or a mixture.
    I tend not to trust anyone or any corporation completely with personal info. I safeguarded my kids identity until they went off to college and then their data is basically out there on a silver platter. Just a quick glance of major companies, banks, security companies, governmental security ops that were hacked in 2012, I wouldn't say never to anything Disney.

    My bigger concern for Disney is their every changing policy. Sure, at the moment they can say one thing, but that doesn't mean tomorrow they will not change their policy. Facebook is another example of ever changing policies about privacy and shared data. I'm not really on-board with the fans that believe RFID will bring my vacation to a whole new exciting level worth all this. There has to be more in it for Disney that just making the WDW experience better than the last 40 years, I just can't be that gullible.
    i-neighborhood likes this.
    Some people are like Slinkies.

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  4. #19
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    The cool aide is free. Facebook and all kinds of other providers.
    If you don't have your own private server and email account, and use free email services they scan your email to provide you with a "better customer experience" ha.

    Verizon, oh verizon. What they are planning is equally sinister as all the "permissions" we give apps, especially Facebook on our phone. Verizon plans to do more than just record a program for you.

    Ah yes, Verizon plans to provide you with a better customer experience and they will do this by recording sound in the vicinity of the device including conversations.

    So, if you are talking about lets say, a Birthday party, you might get an email or advertisements while your browsing about birthday supplies, or even a pop up on your T.v.

    BTW that's why Facebook wants permission to access your Camera, get out. okay.

    And then Flash player settings want to access your mic or camera on your computer.

    They all have a motive and I'm sure Disney is no different.

    All these great things that service providers entice us with they ultimately wind up making money by selling our information or sharing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by HauntedGabe View Post
    I tend not to trust anyone or any corporation completely with personal info. I safeguarded my kids identity until they went off to college and then their data is basically out there on a silver platter. Just a quick glance of major companies, banks, security companies, governmental security ops that were hacked in 2012, I wouldn't say never to anything Disney.

    My bigger concern for Disney is their every changing policy. Sure, at the moment they can say one thing, but that doesn't mean tomorrow they will not change their policy. Facebook is another example of ever changing policies about privacy and shared data. I'm not really on-board with the fans that believe RFID will bring my vacation to a whole new exciting level worth all this. There has to be more in it for Disney that just making the WDW experience better than the last 40 years, I just can't be that gullible.

  5. #20
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    I forgot the news all over television today about China hacking sensitive military secrets of ours including the stealth, patriot defense system and all kinds of other stuff that tax payers have paid billions of dollars for our country to have the edge and the best and so much of it compromised or at least significantly compromised. These are U.S. Govt computers that I would assume are the most secure including encryption levels not available to the public, yet poof gone.

  6. #21
    Mo Noyz is offline Unfortunately, this user's actions have resulted in him/her being BANNED from the site
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Eh, the hand-wringing over personal information is overblown, IMO.

    Go ahead. Sell my personal information. The buyer should be very excited about getting nothing out of it.

  7. #22
    doconeill's Avatar
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Quote Originally Posted by i-neighborhood View Post
    My confidence is not the same regarding the integrity and exploitation of personal, private or corporate data, especially where RFID is concerned. The primary deployment of RFID systems are deployed in the manner you describe, but that doesn't preclude exploitation and that is what I am referring in disagreeing regarding personal information, however, not all RFID deployments are exclusive to that method and some deployments contain a mixture or capability for the tag to contain a variety of information on the tag itself.
    Yes, there are systems where you can program custom information on the RFID tags. They aren't nearly as common, however, as it is much simpler to go with the standard unique ID tags, and refer to a database lookup for the real information. The programmable tags are more complicated as they must have two way communications, flash/eeprom storage (which requires more power), etc.

    Aside from Disney statements that the bands themselves do not contain personal information, there is also the logic in it. What purpose does putting personal information on tag serve? Why go with a more complicated and also far less secure setup than necessary?

    Have you ever stayed on-site, and gotten a Key To The World card? Even prior to the current RFID cards, the system worked the exact same way. The card itself was just a key to the information - there is no information encoded on the card itself, just its ID. And that ID is associated in the database with the relevant information. It makes them much easier to replace as well - all they have to do is change the ID to a new one in the database, and not have to "reprogram" a card with the relevant info. It also allows "deactivating" the old one, which if it had all the personal information on it, couldn't be done.

    In fact, the MagicBands are actually more secure than the KTTW cards, since they actually don't have any personal information printed on them either. KTTW cards did (I haven't seen the new RFID ones yet - will shortly, but I believe they still print on them), as they had at least your name and the dates you were staying, where they could easily be read without technology. Plus the ticket ID and some other info. The only things visible on the MagicBands is the FCC disclaimer, the MagicBand physical ID, and an optional 9-10 character name that can be screen printed on (if ordered in advance, along with color choice).

    The REAL concern is over that Disney Database of Everything (tm). If they somehow got into that, there is an ENORMOUS amount of personal information in there. If they have access to that, they don't even NEED the RFID stuff anyways.
    i-neighborhood likes this.
    Doc

    Website work in progress: WDW Untangled: Fastpass+ - Rider Switch - ADR Calculator - Magic Your Way Ticket Price Calculator
    Non-WDW: Sci-Fi Storm - SF/Fantasy news


  8. #23
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    Lets hope the bad guys don't access the database. And lets hope Disney never decides to sell or share the info, I'm inclined to think they won't but who knows. But like you said, the database is an enormous treasure trove of information and hopefully no one sets their eyes on it because I'm sure we're all in there.

    What you say makes since going with a simpler system and I understand Disney's statements and they probably will go with a simple deployment, the long term picture will reveal.

    In any event the MagicBands are here which represent a another "carousel of progress" in how things have evolved from when it first opened and things that were in place like the tickets for rides.

    I'm sure Mr. Walt Disney would be amazed at the technological advancements and uses in his parks if he were alive. Which reminds me of a song lol -There's a great big beautiful tomorrow...


    Quote Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
    Yes, there are systems where you can program custom information on the RFID tags. They aren't nearly as common, however, as it is much simpler to go with the standard unique ID tags, and refer to a database lookup for the real information. The programmable tags are more complicated as they must have two way communications, flash/eeprom storage (which requires more power), etc.

    Aside from Disney statements that the bands themselves do not contain personal information, there is also the logic in it. What purpose does putting personal information on tag serve? Why go with a more complicated and also far less secure setup than necessary?

    Have you ever stayed on-site, and gotten a Key To The World card? Even prior to the current RFID cards, the system worked the exact same way. The card itself was just a key to the information - there is no information encoded on the card itself, just its ID. And that ID is associated in the database with the relevant information. It makes them much easier to replace as well - all they have to do is change the ID to a new one in the database, and not have to "reprogram" a card with the relevant info. It also allows "deactivating" the old one, which if it had all the personal information on it, couldn't be done.

    In fact, the MagicBands are actually more secure than the KTTW cards, since they actually don't have any personal information printed on them either. KTTW cards did (I haven't seen the new RFID ones yet - will shortly, but I believe they still print on them), as they had at least your name and the dates you were staying, where they could easily be read without technology. Plus the ticket ID and some other info. The only things visible on the MagicBands is the FCC disclaimer, the MagicBand physical ID, and an optional 9-10 character name that can be screen printed on (if ordered in advance, along with color choice).

    The REAL concern is over that Disney Database of Everything (tm). If they somehow got into that, there is an ENORMOUS amount of personal information in there. If they have access to that, they don't even NEED the RFID stuff anyways.

  9. #24
    Mo Noyz is offline Unfortunately, this user's actions have resulted in him/her being BANNED from the site
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Do you honestly believe your information isn't all over the place to begin with? In this day and age?

    I suppose if you don't have a bank account, driver's license, have never signed up for anything, made purchases online, have a credit card, have an online account, or really just never use the internet, don't have utilities, etc...then perhaps there's not a lot of information on you.

  10. #25
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    Of course I understand that, however doesn't it mean it isn't a concern or that i'm not going to raise an objection.
    Regardless of what ANYONE else thinks. Just because the information is out there doesn't mean I shouldn't care. The system has created a problem and in turn there is no remedy for the consumer except for the minimum to pay your credit card company or a company like lifelock to attempt to protect your identity from theft. People shouldn't have to worry about their information being misused to the degree the problem has reached with theft and identity theft.

    Just because Disney, Facebook, the Government or anyone else makes a declaratory statement about something being safe. Well I have plenty of toilet paper to address that.

    Just to live or to participate you VIRTUALLY ALMOST have no choice but to "opt in" or have your information put at risk doesn't mean i'm drinking the cool aide willingly but that's the society we live in and the only way to completely avoid it would be to become Amish or similar and live in that manner. So yes I honestly believe my information is all over the place, especially since I have worked with information technologies for many years from embedded solutions to global monitoring applications, I understand that our information is available at so many cross roads, but again as much as I am a purveyor of technology and have been in support of RFID embedding in Driver License, Automobile Plates and Video Surveillance deployments on every street corner, that doesn't make me less aware or concerned of privacy issues and the damage it can do to an individual.

    YOU are entitled to your opinion and I AM entitled to my opinion, and most probably or rarely never the twain shall meet I am sure, to answer your question below, which this last sentence could've been suffice to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mo Noyz View Post
    Do you honestly believe your information isn't all over the place to begin with? In this day and age?

    I suppose if you don't have a bank account, driver's license, have never signed up for anything, made purchases online, have a credit card, have an online account, or really just never use the internet, don't have utilities, etc...then perhaps there's not a lot of information on you.

  11. #26
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    Disney exec shows off new wireless wristbands
    This story was posted an hour ago about the Magic Bands.

  12. #27
    doconeill's Avatar
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Quote Originally Posted by i-neighborhood View Post
    Disney exec shows off new wireless wristbands
    This story was posted an hour ago about the Magic Bands.
    He showed them off in California? I don't think they DL fans are going to like Fastpass+ at all...

    The article doesn't give much in the way of direct quotes. The "opt in" tracking - I believe if you get the MagicBand, you are opting in. To opt-out, you have to get the RFID card instead (which lacks the active RFID component).
    Doc

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  13. #28
    Mo Noyz is offline Unfortunately, this user's actions have resulted in him/her being BANNED from the site
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    Re: New Fast Pass

    Quote Originally Posted by i-neighborhood View Post
    Of course I understand that, however doesn't it mean it isn't a concern or that i'm not going to raise an objection.
    Regardless of what ANYONE else thinks. Just because the information is out there doesn't mean I shouldn't care. The system has created a problem and in turn there is no remedy for the consumer except for the minimum to pay your credit card company or a company like lifelock to attempt to protect your identity from theft. People shouldn't have to worry about their information being misused to the degree the problem has reached with theft and identity theft.

    Just because Disney, Facebook, the Government or anyone else makes a declaratory statement about something being safe. Well I have plenty of toilet paper to address that.

    Just to live or to participate you VIRTUALLY ALMOST have no choice but to "opt in" or have your information put at risk doesn't mean i'm drinking the cool aide willingly but that's the society we live in and the only way to completely avoid it would be to become Amish or similar and live in that manner. So yes I honestly believe my information is all over the place, especially since I have worked with information technologies for many years from embedded solutions to global monitoring applications, I understand that our information is available at so many cross roads, but again as much as I am a purveyor of technology and have been in support of RFID embedding in Driver License, Automobile Plates and Video Surveillance deployments on every street corner, that doesn't make me less aware or concerned of privacy issues and the damage it can do to an individual.

    YOU are entitled to your opinion and I AM entitled to my opinion, and most probably or rarely never the twain shall meet I am sure, to answer your question below, which this last sentence could've been suffice to do so.
    Sure, you can object. It just seems completely pointless when it's based on sheer speculation. And it stinks of unfounded charges of incompetence. It would be nice if we could limit this site to just one poster who makes that their m.o.

    The Disney company is going to fall under the same security and privacy laws and regulations that exist for every other company out there. It would be the height of insanity for them not to take every precaution necessary, and then some, to protect your information. It seems more rational to wait and see how this all shakes out rather than jumping the gun to make baseless assumptions.

  14. #29
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    Your posts are pointless and most of them are for the purpose of inciting, to be argumentative or condescending. To be HONEST I really don't care what you have to say because as I have seen from your previous post with others on this site you endlessly argue, belittle and attempt to bait people into endless debates. Toilet paper is a great commodity and useful where your posts are concerned.

    You say my posts stink of unfounded charges and stink of incompetence, well your post stink and your presence on this site in my opinion stinks and is counterproductive. At this point I could careless, but I want you to know what I think about what your doing, and if that means I get banned, well its worth it all. Because I didn't come on here to find another Facebook type site with idiots that have nothing better to do than demean and pick and create issues.

    I suggest you ignore my posts and I will ignore yours because I don't like you and I don't want to have any dialogue with you. I can't make it more plainer than that. You got that. Now you can pointless respond and demean this response until it freezes over, I'm done with any kind of interaction with you.

    Now you can put that in your toilet and flush it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mo Noyz View Post
    Sure, you can object. It just seems completely pointless when it's based on sheer speculation. And it stinks of unfounded charges of incompetence. It would be nice if we could limit this site to just one poster who makes that their m.o.

    The Disney company is going to fall under the same security and privacy laws and regulations that exist for every other company out there. It would be the height of insanity for them not to take every precaution necessary, and then some, to protect your information. It seems more rational to wait and see how this all shakes out rather than jumping the gun to make baseless assumptions.

  15. #30
    i-neighborhood Guest

    Re: New Fast Pass

    Yuup, in California but it's coming here first. Not a lot of quotes but I'm wondering why they talk about that today and if its coincidence or if they wanted to deflect away from the two incidents at the two parks with the gun and the other with the dry ice explosion.
    Quote Originally Posted by doconeill View Post
    He showed them off in California? I don't think they DL fans are going to like Fastpass+ at all...

    The article doesn't give much in the way of direct quotes. The "opt in" tracking - I believe if you get the MagicBand, you are opting in. To opt-out, you have to get the RFID card instead (which lacks the active RFID component).

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