What Was Disney's BIGGEST Mistake?

[JNota0005DakMC]

Well we know... The bottom line is priority número UNO...!!!

[HauntedGabe]

One theme does carry through. costs rise but services seem to be falling behind. Profits are up for the Theme Parks division and Disney overall. It is fair to wonder why the profit increase doesn't translate to greater maintenance investment in the parks. I recallr eading that when a marketing executive took over as the chief for the Disneyland park, profits went up at the cost of "deferred maintenace" to the park itself.

And WDW went through almost decade of deferring itself, pretty much from 9/11. Look at how long they let Phase 2 of Pop Century rot as a black-eye to Pop, River Country still a fungus growing mess and Discovery Island a true abandoned island. Hyperion being shelved yet leaving DTD in a messy limbo. It wasn't until Disney was half way through the FLE did they decide to give a facelift to the rest of the park that it sorely needed.

I admire how Universal has learned to be swift this decade with its build of Harry, phase two of Harry and this summer being able to demo Murder, She Wrote and Hercules/Xena Theaters in late June of this year and are already building out the new attraction vigorously. Amazing progress in 45 days.

I tend to lean towards Disney's biggest mistake being the letting go of so many of their seasoned imagineers. That group knew how to get projects off the ground and finished in a reasonable time frame. Many of the discarded imagineers landed at Universal. Letting them go saved Disney big bucks and Universal certainly capitalized on hiring those veterans.

[Mo Noyz]

Oh, I'd say the current crop of imagineers are doing a pretty fine job.

As for time frames, building codes and safety engineering are lightyears different than they were in the 70's/80's. Especially in Florida (Hurricane Alley). With the bureaucracy involved today, it'd likely take them 4 or 5 years to build Epcot.

[HauntedGabe]

Oh, I'd say the current crop of imagineers are doing a pretty fine job.

As for time frames, building codes and safety engineering are lightyears different than they were in the 70's/80's. Especially in Florida (Hurricane Alley). With the bureaucracy involved today, it'd likely take them 4 or 5 years to build Epcot.

I can't agree with that analogy. Universal has apply for permits in the beginning of June 2012, demo in late June and be well on their way to building by late July 2012. Both corporations are dealing with the same bureaucracy and the same hurricane alley. I do agree it would take Disney 4 or 5 years to build Epcot with these imagineers though. Look how long it took this crew to break ground on FLE and the mess called the Wharf. The old timers that moved over to Universal know how to make a decision and implement it. Disney imagineers has mastered waffling.

Just take a look at the photo's of the Circus Splash area, especially the ones showing the entire circle pad. A tight iron fence around the focus piece, the train engine. It isn't visually appealing if we bear in mind how much time the imagineers had to create that splash pad. The balance of the splash area is imagineered well, the fenced train engine, not so much. I don't look at that train engine and say pretty fine job imagineers. My opinion is the old imagineers did a much better job with the old Donald Duck splash pad area in Toon, it didn't require a metal fence around the boat.

[Mo Noyz]

I think there is some kind of disconnect in what we're referring to. Imagineering doesn't break the ground. They design the product that is to be implemented.

And to be clear, if Universal were trying to build Epcot today it would take them just as long. Ever-changing and stricter building codes, as well as ever-changing and stricter OSHA standards play a very big part in everything being done.

Now, Harry Pooterville "broke ground" in January 2008. It officially opened on June 18, 2010. And let's keep in mind they weren't building an entirely new land. Most of it used a previously built section of the park.

Compare that to the FL expansion, and we're looking at a similar time frame.

[HauntedGabe]

I think there is some kind of disconnect in what we're referring to. Imagineering doesn't break the ground. They design the product that is to be implemented.

The imagineers were responsible for designing the Engine and the metal fence the old imagineers designed the Duck Boat. That fence around the Engine should be an embarrassment and I'd bet no Imagineer would ever put that Engine/Fence on their resume.

Obviously construction firms are hired out to do the builds. Imagineers just can't get their act together in a timely fashion so ground can be broken. And when they do you wind up with FLE stall and redesign and the never ending Wharf saga. Universal started to build the beautiful Cinematic Spectacular, (which is narrated better than anything Disney has narrated in a while) after the wharf was started. Spectacular is up and running, the Wharf, well Disney is still Waffling.

And to be clear, if Universal were trying to build Epcot today it would take them just as long. Ever-changing and stricter building codes, as well as ever-changing and stricter OSHA standards play a very big part in everything being done.

I find that statement about Universal/Epcot to be pure conjector. Universal has a better track record in recent years of just getting their act together quicker than Disney can. I've yet to see Disney in the last few years pull off a demo and rebuild as quickly as Universal currently is. Heck, Disney couldn't even demo the FL Skyway in the timeframe Universal did with Stage 44 and the skyway was a tiny little building. In place of the skyway that was demo'd Disney is building a restroom. This should not have been mind boggling build for Disney. It has been how long since they broke ground on that building? March? or maybe before, no where near completion. It isn't like they have never built a restroom before.

As for OSHA, both corporations are dealing with the same labor safety issues and it doesn't make a difference if it is a park, an attraction or a rehab. The standards are the same safety requirements for labor. Maybe OSHA has more issues with Disney, that is possible and that could slow Disney down. Maybe Universal complies better from the get-go. Disney has been caught in the OSHA web for not being compliant twice with the Primemal Whirl and with the monorail operation so it is possible that OSHA needs to watch Disney projects more closely given the deaths of workers on their property the last few years.

Now, Harry Pooterville "broke ground" in January 2008. It officially opened on June 18, 2010. And let's keep in mind they weren't building an entirely new land. Most of it used a previously built section of the park.

So roughly 2 1/2 years and it is an entirely new land, it wasn't like Toad to Pooh or Barnstormer to the Great Goofini or SWSA to Meet and Greet or a half new attraction with one new Dumbo.

There is no way Disney is going to come in under the timeframe Univeral pulled off with Harry or even close to matching it as you indicate.

A good chunk of the foot print from the FLE expansion was repurposed. All of Toon along with all of the area where 20K was straight across to Pinoccio, which included a splash area and Pooh's Thoughtful play area. Also a chunk of FLE behind that was an off stage area and beyond that a parking area with infrastructure.

The last I read FLE will not complete its second of two attractions until 2014, so another 2 long years, almost the time it took Universal to build Harry and that is IF Disney can pull the coaster off by 2014! It will be interesting to see if Disney's coaster is an equal comp to Harry's.

Compare that to the FL expansion, and we're looking at a similar time frame.

In what time warp did you pull that one from? Only if you are including Harry and the December of 2011 announcement of upcoming Harry 2.0 ETA late 2014 or early 2015. Harry will be opened for 4 years or more before Disney can even complete FLE, remember Disney has an additional two years to go yet on FLE, it only took 2 1/2 years total to build all of Harry. How is that a similar timeframe?

Meanwhile, if Avatar announced in 2011 ever gets off the ground its ETA has been pushed off from 2015 to 2017. Six freak'n years. If Avatar happens lets pray that it encompases more than a single attraction, I love Everest but that is one long walk for a singular attraction/expansion hardly qualified as a "new land."

Oy, Disney just needs to steal those imagineers from Universal and pay them dearly. They understood time is money while working for Disney and carried that philosophy with them to Universal. I'd love to see them receive a Disney 'Welcome Home.'

[Mo Noyz]

If you ever decide to pull your head out of your hindquarters, this would be a much easier discussion to continue.

1. Pooterville was NOT an entirely new land. It was built mostly using an already existing area of the IoA park. The Dueling Dragons had been there for years, and years. The Flying Unicorn had ALSO been there for years. Oh, and as for your blazing fast time frames for all things Universal. The Flying Unicorn is what was refurbished into the Flight of the Hippogriff. How long did it take. Two years!

2. Pooterville was announced in January 2008, and opened in June 2010. Around 30 months, using two existing attractions as the centerpiece.

3. FLE was announced September 2009, and will officially open in December. Roughly 40 months using absolutely no existing attractions. Unless you want to count moving Dumbo.

As for the time frame on Mine Coaster, since Universal hasn't built a new roller coaster since 2000, and it took them 2 years to refurbish that one, I wouldn't crow too much if I were you.

[Mo Noyz]

BTW, by the time the mine coaster is built, WDW will have built two completely new roller coasters, and refurbished two of it's existing coasters all while Universal has...well...refurbished one.

How could that be?

I thought Universal was the leader of the pack?

[mickeytoo]

At the risk of bein' too simplistic, and bein' the simpleton I can sometimes be, there a few things that come to me off the top of my head right now.
First, Walt always said he was not one to sit on his laurels (or Hardy's, for that matter ). Also, there seems to be a battle goin' on between the modern-day Walter Elias Disney's and the modern-day Roy Oliver Disney's. The difference bein' that at least Walt and Roy ultimately understood each other and worked things out in the long run to make the dreams a reality. The modern bunch, not so much. Also, I just sometimes think that Disney just plain has too many irons in the fire to keep up with.
Just my 2 cents...for now, anyway.

[Veritas]

Never experienced the classic Journey into Imagination, so last night I "youtube'd" it. Having seen what the attraction used to be like compared to what it is now, I seriously question the decision making behind the re-vamp. It is very disheartening to see what a management type allowed to be minused re: the show itself and to be abandoned on the upper level. I am curious about the decision makling process for this and how it was "sold" as a viable course of action.

[Mo Noyz]

You'd have to talk to Kodak.

Unfortunately, especially in the case of Epcot, what the sponser says, goes. The decision to destroy Journey was Kodak's, not Disney's.

[Veritas]

You'd have to talk to Kodak.

Unfortunately, especially in the case of Epcot, what the sponser says, goes. The decision to destroy Journey was Kodak's, not Disney's.

Suddenly I'm more pleased than I thought I'd be that I have a Sony digital camera. Poor decision making by Kodak. The decision to "minus" a perfectly solid attraction casts question on other corporate decision making.

[Park Hopper Dad]

You'd have to talk to Kodak.

Unfortunately, especially in the case of Epcot, what the sponser says, goes. The decision to destroy Journey was Kodak's, not Disney's.

Then I would find another sponsor. However! Why does Disney NEED sponsors in the first place? Are they not capable of sponsoring themselves in their pavilions? Sure they are! This again, falls into what I have said on earlier posts and other threads, GREED!

[Veritas]

Then I would find another sponsor. However! Why does Disney NEED sponsors in the first place? Are they not capable of sponsoring themselves in their pavilions? Sure they are! This again, falls into what I have said on earlier posts and other threads, GREED!

That's the crux of it all. I get the idea that part of EPCOT was designed to show case progess, technology and the like so corporate sponsors make sens eint hat they would get to showccase their new and emerging technologies. Spnsor cash flow is actually palatable if looked at in that light. Now for the "however", it's hard to buy that Imagination Pavilion showcases emerging Kodak tech. Corporate sponsorship at its worst is a cost cutting gimmick. Not to hard to see in this case unfortunately.

[Mo Noyz]

If you don't approve of thier business practice, why continue to support them?